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Author Topic: Is Jesus Christ the only son of GOD or both GOD and son...?  (Read 2988 times)
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Squidwort
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« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2008, 02:19:08 PM »

The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea right after the popularization of Christianity heavily debated on this. maraming tao during that time wanted to make money by selling "gospels", some even sell pieces of wood (taken from the actual crucifix of christ daw). that's also why the catholic church have massive volumes of unpublished gospels regarded as apocrypha.

Regarding the nature of god, christ and the holy ghost. Christ is connected to god through the holy spirit, which is the reason why he can speak in behalf of his father. as for his divinity, it is yet to be speculated.

If you want to get it straight from a theologist, I recommend reading the book "The Faith Explained", it contains very interesting insights on topics that most people find controversial regarding the Catholic faith. It has answers to why the world was created, the nature of love (natural, supernatural, agape), the categories of sin and why it is sinful, the nature of the soul, the angels, the sacraments, the nature of god (his mercy, justice, etc), and about revelation stuff.

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« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2008, 07:23:09 PM »

God who created all things has no beginning; He is from everlasting to everlasting.
Jesus Christ came from God.

God is immortal.
Jesus Christ died on the cross.

The Almighty God neither grows tires nor weary.
Jesus Christ wearied or grew tired.

God is spirit, without flesh and bones.
Jesus Christ is a man having flesh and bones.

God knows no other God besides Himself.
Jesus Christ called upon the Father and acknowledged Him as the only true God.

God is above all; He is subject to no one.
Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is subject to God the Father.


 smile      smile      smile
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El Zniv
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« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2008, 08:55:18 AM »

I don't think this question really has a definite answer.The answer to this question depends on each one's faith. If a person really sticks to his beliefs, no matter how much explanation would be done to counter that belief, his answer to the question would still be the same.
 
I'm sorry, but to conclude that God's son must also be a God is sinfully wrong. 

What's sinful in that? And what Germie has said is about God's omnipotence. He can be anywhere, anyone or anything as he wanted it. so it's not actually
God's son must also be a God
, but God can become also his son at the same time.

God who created all things has no beginning; He is from everlasting to everlasting.
Jesus Christ came from God.

God is immortal.
Jesus Christ died on the cross.

The Almighty God neither grows tires nor weary.
Jesus Christ wearied or grew tired.

God is spirit, without flesh and bones.
Jesus Christ is a man having flesh and bones.

God knows no other God besides Himself.
Jesus Christ called upon the Father and acknowledged Him as the only true God.

God is above all; He is subject to no one.
Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is subject to God the Father.

God's omnipotence: he can make himself his human son who also answers to himself, acknowledges himself, can have flesh and bones, grow tired, can die, etc...

Its now obvious that I believe Jesus is both God and Son.. ashamed

I'm not really a very religious person or a preacher or reader books..

I just want share my faith..  Grin
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monritche
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« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2008, 02:33:59 AM »

What If God Was One Of Us? Lyrics

heyyyy ayyyy ayyyy
If god had a name?
what would it be?
and would you call it to his face?
if you were faced with him and all his glory
what would you ask if you had just one question?

an yeah yeah god is great
yeah yeah god is good
yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah
what if god was one of us
just a slob like one of us
just a stranger on a bus
tryin to make his way home

if god had a face
what would it look like?
and would you wanna see?
if seeing ment you would have to belive
in things like heaven and in jesus and the saints and all the prophets

an yeah yeah god is great
yeah yeah god is good
yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah
what if god was one of us
just a slob like one of us
just a stranger on a bus
tryin to make his way home
trying to make his way home
back up to heaven all alone
no body calling on the phone

except maybe the pope maybe in rome

yeah ohhh ohhh ohhh

an yeah yeah god is great
yeah yeah god is good
yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah
what if god was one of us
just a slob like one of us
just a stranger on a bus
tryin to make his way home
just tryin to make his way home
like a hole in rollin stones
back up to heaven all alone
just trying to make his way home
no body calling on the phone
except for the pope maybe in rome
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El Zniv
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« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2008, 02:37:22 PM »

 cheer go mon!  cheer
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Gcorneja
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« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2008, 07:39:14 PM »

I don't want to be a preacher here.... haahah! oh no

After all the research (composed of asking my friends and checking the web), I realized that the question cannot be answered by one specific idea but many. This is true since the main concern here involves religion. Muslims believe that Jesus is just a prophet, most of the Catholics believe that Jesus is God Himself and some others don't believe in Jesus.
I think all of the answers are correct and no one has the right to discredit the belief of the person. We can only answer the question but not question the answer of others. It is not SINFUL to believe something that your religion believes. Is it?

The question can be answered by many proofs. Also, it is sinful to believe on something which is false and has lead many people to wrong beliefs. Not all the answers here are correct. Maybe, at your point of view. But for me, not. Hehe! God is omnipotent but he has already prophecised(not sure if the term is correct or if the spelling is right) about Jesus Christ. He had presented his plans and he did not say that he will be on earth as  a person who is Jesus Christ. These two are different.

Peace!

 wave


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El Zniv
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« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2008, 06:32:46 AM »


I don't want to be a preacher here.... haahah! oh no

The question can be answered by many proofs. Also, it is sinful to believe on something which is false and has lead many people to wrong beliefs. Not all the answers here are correct. Maybe, at your point of view. But for me, not. Hehe! God is omnipotent but he has already prophecised(not sure if the term is correct or if the spelling is right) about Jesus Christ. He had presented his plans and he did not say that he will be on earth as  a person who is Jesus Christ. These two are different.

Peace!

 wave


So it means that everyone can say that everybody else is sinful if everybody else's belief is false to them. It would also mean that everybody's answer could be correct here because each proof, belief or prophecy would only be true to anyone who believes in it. We can't always push what we believe in to other people with prophecies and proofs. They're only be effective in people who believe or made to believe them. Prophecies and proofs can also have different meanings depending who interprets them. And as i observed their are many 'prophecies' and 'proofs' that were  entirely made by man to attract churchgoers. Something like an advertising campaign.  haha

As expected, people will always fight for what they believe in. And I really admire those who do that. Great job people! okay You have really great pride on what you do.

But this thread will never end unless everyone accepts that each one would have their own point of view Or someone would be great enough to be able to convert everyones belief to their own. A discussion will really end if everybody comes to believe in a single idea so i don't think this one will really end. oh no


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El Zniv
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« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2008, 09:13:18 AM »

And by the way, we don't have the right to say that anyone is sinful because he/she has different beliefs from us... that's disrespect.. wars and death have happened because of that disrespect.. And besides, what we all believed in was in fact just made up by man a long time ago.. we just came to believe that it was more than man who made that.. Which means everything we have said here given that we set aside our beliefs were just all from human imagination and creativity.. there are no facts.. so nothing is actually right or wrong.. but because it is given that we have our beliefs.. each of us have our own rights and wrongs.. So we might just as well respect that.. unless respect in others belief is sinful and have to do the opposite then i can respect that.. confused

For this thread to have a better discussion and not only a spam of what people believe in and others don't.. because it will be useless if that keeps on.. maybe its better to have a common basis of 'facts' that each one here believes in.. the Bible maybe? even interpretations can be different but at least its better than having a statement with only people from ur sect believes in.. at least things are written.. okay
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« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2008, 11:18:01 AM »

God who created all things has no beginning; He is from everlasting to everlasting.
Jesus Christ came from God.

God is immortal.
Jesus Christ died on the cross.

The Almighty God neither grows tires nor weary.
Jesus Christ wearied or grew tired.

God is spirit, without flesh and bones.
Jesus Christ is a man having flesh and bones.

God knows no other God besides Himself.
Jesus Christ called upon the Father and acknowledged Him as the only true God.

God is above all; He is subject to no one.
Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is subject to God the Father.

 smile      smile      smile

Jesus was and has always been God. He is the Father and the Father is Jesus. He took a human form and gained some human qualities: he grew tired and he died - for our sins - but he rose again on the third day. It was part of the plan. God can do anything as he pleases.

I think it will help to cite some verses smile

John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

John 10:30
"I and the Father are one."

John 10:33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

John 14:9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Philippians 2:5-11
 5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
 6Who, being in very nature God,
      did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
 7but made himself nothing,
      taking the very nature of a servant,
      being made in human likeness.
 8And being found in appearance as a man,
      he humbled himself
      and became obedient to death—
         even death on a cross!
 9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
      and gave him the name that is above every name,
 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
      in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
      to the glory of God the Father.
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El Zniv
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« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2008, 01:31:39 PM »

Hehe! God is omnipotent but he has already prophecised(not sure if the term is correct or if the spelling is right) about Jesus Christ. He had presented his plans and he did not say that he will be on earth as  a person who is Jesus Christ.

In the said "prophecy", i don't know the contents but my point is that you said, God presented his plans and he did not say about being with man as Jesus Christ.. Does God really have to tell everything to man? Huh? I mean tawo gani ghatag surprise exams.. Ano nlang ayhan c God dba? Even before surprises were even a concept HE was already there and has infinitely many in store for us.. I have a lot of surprises received from HIM..  Grin
And the fact that God is omnipotent should have given you an idea that he also has the power to change his prophecies.. And prophecies in my own opinion are just guides to what will happen and not an in-depth walk-through so what was said in that "prophecy" could be more or less than what most would understand.. so i don't think na may gnchange sya or something like that.. The "prophecy" should have been given as what God has planned and Jesus Christ was part of the plan..

Anyway,
The bible revels him as 'Man and God'. Over 30 times the bible describes Jesus as the 'Son of Man' but 30 times also it says Jesus is the 'Son of God'.  Huh?

JUde 25, "to the only wise God our Savior, (Savior in Bible means CHRIST) be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both no and for ever , Amen."  Huh?

God commanded his people not to worship anu other gods but him. Worship belongs only to God. But the bible gives enormous evidences that worship was given to Jesus, as He is God.
-----------------------------
According to Jesus : "Many will come in my name to lead you astray" and Peter who founded the Catholic Church, "False teachers will appear among you."
-----------------------------

In Exodus 3:14-17, God reveals His name to Moses as " I AM who I AM ... this is my name forever". In the New testament Jesus is using the title of God for himself.

John8:57-59 states: "Then the Jews said to him, 'you are not yet 50 years old and have you seen Abraham?' Jesus said to them; " most assuredly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." Then they took up stones to throw at him." He even insisted that the JEws must believe that he is " I AM."

In Jn.8:24, Jesus says to Jews: "If you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins."
-----------------------------------------------
Since its too long, other passages in the bible that supports this explanation:
Jn 13:19
Jn. 14:8
John 5:17
John 10:30-39
MAt.4:7
Isaiah 44:6
Rev. 21:6-7

FOR A MORE INSIGHTFUL REFERENCE, READ "know the truth."
John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

John 10:30
"I and the Father are one."

John 10:33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

John 14:9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Philippians 2:5-11
 5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
 6Who, being in very nature God,
      did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
 7but made himself nothing,
      taking the very nature of a servant,
      being made in human likeness.
 8And being found in appearance as a man,
      he humbled himself
      and became obedient to death—
         even death on a cross!
 9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
      and gave him the name that is above every name,
 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
      in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
      to the glory of God the Father.

Great job sa mga pips! okay We, can always get answers from the best selling book ever.. haha I haven't read much of it though.. ashamed
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« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2008, 07:25:27 PM »

THE ATTRIBUTES OF CHRIST


- SON OF GOD. Mt. 3:17
   Never has any correct translation of the Bible said that Christ is God the    Son. What can be read in the Bible is the fact that Christ is the Son of God.

- HE WAS MADE LORD.     Acts 2:36
  HE WAS MADE SAVIORS. Acts 5:31
  MEDIATOR.                   I Tim. 2:5
  PLACED ABOVE ALL CREATURES. Eph. 1:20-22
   I don’t degrade Jesus Christ.

- Even God highly exalted Him and commanded that He be worshipped.
                                    Philip. 2:9-11
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« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2008, 07:27:16 PM »

THE NATURE OF CHRIST

- CHRIST IS A MAN ACCORDING TO HIMSELF. Jn.8:40

- MAN MEDIATOR, according to Apostle Paul…. I Tim.2:5
  MAN, according to Apostle Peter… Acts 2:22
  MAN, according to Apostle Matthew… Mt. 1:18,20

- God is not man… hos.11:9

      -   Man is not God… Ezek.28:2


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El Zniv
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« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2008, 12:03:58 PM »

THE NATURE OF CHRIST

- CHRIST IS A MAN ACCORDING TO HIMSELF. Jn.8:40

- MAN MEDIATOR, according to Apostle Paul…. I Tim.2:5
  MAN, according to Apostle Peter… Acts 2:22
  MAN, according to Apostle Matthew… Mt. 1:18,20

- God is not man… hos.11:9

      -   Man is not God… Ezek.28:2
THE ATTRIBUTES OF CHRIST
- SON OF GOD. Mt. 3:17
   Never has any correct translation of the Bible said that Christ is God the    Son. What can be read in the Bible is the fact that Christ is the Son of God.
- HE WAS MADE LORD.     Acts 2:36
  HE WAS MADE SAVIORS. Acts 5:31
  MEDIATOR.                   I Tim. 2:5
  PLACED ABOVE ALL CREATURES. Eph. 1:20-22
   I don’t degrade Jesus Christ.

- Even God highly exalted Him and commanded that He be worshipped.
                                    Philip. 2:9-11



Nice! okay at least may ara na proof on your point.. Wink

I got this from http://www.abrahamic-faith.com/Jesus-son-of-God.html
almost made my nose bleed  confused but I think this nicely explains things..
I myself only believed and didn't really look for any proof of what i believed because I don't think its necessary.. So what I did is search for things that were made by people who looked for proofs with the same belief.. Grin

Jesus as the Son of God: A Biblical Exegesis

    Often times, Christians are challenged to produce biblical evidence in support of their belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ in substantiation of their understanding of Trinitarian monotheism. Muslims assert that the phrase “Son of God” does not necessarily imply that Jesus is Deity, and therefore does not support the Trinitarian belief of three Persons in One God. Since the issue of Trinitarian monotheism and the Deity of Jesus have already been dealt with, we will not delve into these subjects here.

    Instead, we will zero in on the biblical phrase “Son of God” in relation to Jesus. In so doing we will also be addressing the erroneous misinterpretation commonly given by some liberal and Unitarian theologians in their assessment of the New Testament witness to Jesus’ Divine sonship. The reason for doing so is that Muslims are fond of quoting such individuals in their attempts at debunking the historic Christian understanding of the title.

    It is often stated by those who do not hold to the historic Christian understanding of Jesus as God’s Son, that Christ is never addressed as “God, the Son,” only as “the Son of God.” Accordingly, this takes a major theological shift, since many personalities are commonly referred to in Scripture as the Son of God without any notion of divinity being attached to it. Hence, the phrase “Son of God” is seen as metaphor expressing one’s closeness to God due to one’s righteous conduct before the Creator. Proponents of such thinking claim that it is in this manner that Christ is referred to as God’s Son, having no divine connotations whatsoever.

    It never ceases to amaze us as how one can make such outlandish statements in view of the overwhelming biblical evidence to the contrary. The Holy Bible explicitly teaches that Jesus is God’s unique Son. Due to the fact Jesus is viewed as being God’s Son in a unique way, Christians have come to the conclusion that God is One in essence, Three in Persons. This establishes the case that Jesus is God the Son, the second Person of the Triune Godhead.

    With this in mind, we proceed to an examination of the biblical understanding of the title “Son of God,” especially in relation to Jesus Christ.

Usage of the phrase “ Son of God” in the Bible

    There are several ways in which the Bible defines the title Son of God:

    · The title is used in relation to angelic beings who dwell in the presence of God and are his personal messengers. (Cf. Genesis 6:2-4; Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7; Psalm 89:6)
    · Those who have come into a covenant relation with God such as:
    a)     Adam - (Cf. Luke 3:38; Genesis 1:26-28, 5:1-2)
    b)     Israel - (Cf. Exodus 4:22; Jeremiah 31:9; Hosea 11:1)
    c)     King David - (Cf. Psalm 2:7; 89:19-20, 26-27)
    d)     Solomon - (Cf. 2 Samuel 7:14; 1 Chronicles 22:7-10)
    · Persons who righteously follow God, walking blamelessly before him. (Cf. Matthew 5:9)
    · Persons who are adopted into the family of God through faith in Jesus Christ. (Cf. John 1:12-13; Romans 8:14-17; Galatians 4:4-7)

Jesus as the Son of God

    When examining the way the Bible addresses Jesus as God’s Son, none of these categories sufficiently define the term. This is due to the fact that Christ is pictured as the unique Son of God. The rest of the so-called sons of God do not share in Christ’s uniqueness.

    The Lord Jesus personally referred to himself as God’s unique Son in John 3:16:

    “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” KJV

    The Greek term for “only-begotten” in the King James version is monogenes which means “one of a kind,” “one and only,” “unique.” Christ is portrayed as the unique or the one and only Son of God. That this is the more correct meaning of the term as opposed to “only begotten” is readily seen in the following citation:

    “By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son (monogenes).” Hebrews 11:17 NIV

    To say Isaac was Abraham’s only-begotten son would make no sense since Abraham fathered Ishmael before Isaac and had six other children as well. (Cf. Genesis 16:15-16, 25:1-6)

    Therefore, monogenes can only mean “unique” in status, and does not necessarily imply generation or birth. Scholars are basically unanimous in their view that monogenes refers to uniqueness in position over generation:

    Dr. James R. White notes,

    The key element to remember in deriving the meaning of monogenes is this: it is a compound term, combining monos[1], meaning only, with a second term. Often it is assumed that the second term is gennasthai/gennao, “to give birth, to beget.” But note that this family of terms has two nu’s, “vv,” rather than a single v found in monogenes. This indicates that the second term is not gennasthai but gignesthai/ginmai, and the noun form, genos. G.L. Prestige discusses the differences that arise from these two derivations in God in Patristic Thought (London: SPCK, 1952), 37-51, 135-141, 151-156.

    Genos means “kind or type,” ginomai is a verb of being. Hence the translations “one of a kind,” “one and only,” “of sole descent.” Some scholars see the - genes element as having a minor impact upon the meaning of the term, and hence see monogenes as a strengthened form of monos, thereby translating it “alone,” “unique,” “incomparable.”  An example of this usage from the LXX is found in Psalm 25:16, “turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely (monogenes) and afflicted: (NASB) (White, The Forgotten Trinity [Minneapolis, MN, Bethany House Publishers, 1998], pp. 201-202, fn. 27)

    Newman and Nida’s A Translator’s Handbook on the Gospel of John (New York: United Bible Societies, 1980, p. 24) state:

    Only son is the rendering of all modern translations (i.e., John 1:18 -ed.). There is no doubt regarding the meaning of the Greek word used here (monogenes); it means “only” and not “only begotten.” The meaning “only begotten,” which appears in the Vulgate, has influenced KJV and many other early translations.

    James Hope Moulton and George Milligan, in The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament (Grand Rapids, Eerdman’s, 1930, pp. 416-417), concur:

    Monogenes is literally “one of a kind,” “only,” “unique” (unicus), not “only begotten,” which would be monogennetos1 (unigenitus,) and is common in the LXX in this sense… The emphasis is on the thought that, as the “only” Son of God, He has no equal and is able to reveal the Father.

    George Beasley-Murray in his the Word Biblical Commentary on John (Waco: Word Books, 1987, p.14), says:

    monogenes, lit., ‘the only one of its kind,” unique in its genos, in the LXX frequently translates… (yahid)…”

    (Note- The preceding material is adapted from Dr. James R. White’s book, The Forgotten Trinity- Recovering the Heart of Christian Belief [Bethany House Pub.; Minneapolis, MN, 1998], pp. 201-203)

    Hence the preceding references clearly demonstrate that monogenes does not mean generation, that Christ was God’s firstborn or first creation. Rather it speaks of uniqueness, that Jesus’ shares a unique relationship with God as Father from all eternity. This is true of Christ alone since no other person has ever shared an eternal filial relationship with God.

    We must point out that Jesus is neither the literal Son of God since this would imply time and procreation noting that a Father always precedes a son who is conceived physically[2]. Nor is he God’s Son in a metaphorical sense. As we have already shown the Holy Bible clearly indicates that there have been and will continue to be many who are sons in a metaphorical or spiritual sense.

Jesus’ sonship is based on the following unique factors:


    · Being the unique Son Christ is the eternal object of God’s eternal love:

    “Father, I desire that they also whom you gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which you have given Me; for you loved Me before the foundation of the world.” John 17:24 NKJV

    “And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” Matthew 3:17 NKJV

    While others can choose to partake of this divine love by receiving Christ personally, only Jesus has and continues to be the object of the Father’s eternal love.  (Cf. John 1:12-13; 10:27; 17:23, 25)

    · Being the unique Son Christ shares the Father’s divine glory and essence, being one with him in nature:

    “And now, O Father, glorify Me together with yourself, with the glory which I had with you before the world was.” John 17:5 NKJV               

    “For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgement to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.” John 5:21-23 NKJV               

    “For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself…” John 5:26               

    “As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.” John 6:57 NKJV     

    “For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.” Colossians 1:13-20 NIV     

    “In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.” Hebrews 1:1-3 NIV

    · Being the Son Christ alone has seen God and knows his true form, having full comprehension of the Father’s essence:
     

    “All things have been committed to Me by My Father.  No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.” Matthew 11:27     

    This verse affirms that the nature of both the Father and the Son is incomprehensible to man, indicating equality, and that apart from the Son, nothing of God’s nature can be fully known. Hence, without God’s self-revelation in Christ we have nothing else that we can rely on in establishing God’s qualities of love, mercy, holiness etc. to the degree revealed at Calvary’s cross.     

    “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.” John 6:46 NKJV     

    “As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father...”  John 10:15 NKJV

    · Being the unique Son Christ is heir of all things:     

    “Then Jesus came to them and said, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit…” Matthew 28:18-19 NIV

    “Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;” John 13:3 NIV     

    “All things that the Father has are Mine…” John 16:15 NKJV     

    “And all Mine are yours, and yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.” John 17:10 NKJV     

    In the parable of the tenants, Christ likens the Jewish religious authorities to vinedressers that were given a vineyard to tend. When vintage season came, the owner sent servants to collect. However, rather than giving the servants some of the fruit of the land, the tenants either beat or killed everyone that was sent to them by the owner of the vineyard:     

    “’Therefore still having one son, his beloved, he also sent him to them last, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ But those tenant farmers said among themselves, ‘This is the Heir. Come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours…’ And they (the religious leaders) sought to lay hands on him, but feared the multitude, for they knew He had spoken the parable against them...” (Cf. Mark 12:1-12 NKJV)     

    In this parable, Christ distinguishes Himself as the owner’s only beloved Son and heir, from the prophets who were merely servants.  From this we can clearly see that Christ, being God’s Son, is preeminently greater than all of God’s prophets and messengers.  This point is made clearer in Mark 13:32:     

    “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, not the Son, but only the Father.” NKJV     

    We have a hierarchical organization being presented here. Man is placed beneath the angels with the Son elevated above all, subject only to the Father. This in no way presumes that Christ is lesser than the Father in nature. Rather, it refers to Jesus’ positional subjection. As God’s Son Christ always remains in submission to the Father.  This becomes clear when we realize that even the very angels who are presented on a higher plain than man, are actually subservient to humanity, indicating that the angel’s superiority is one of position. (Cf. Psalm 8:3-8; Hebrews 1:7, 14; 2:5-9; 1 Corinthians 6:3)     

    While on earth, Christ existed in the form of a slave whereas both the Father and the angels remained in their exalted positions. Following Christ’s re-exaltation to heaven Jesus no longer remains in the form of a servant[3]. (Cf. Philippians 2:5b-11)             

    · Being the unique Son implies that Christ is a distinct Person from the Father.

    Even though Christ is equal with the Father in nature, he is not identical to the Father in person. This basically affirms that the God of Scripture is a multi-personal Being, more specifically tri-personal. (Cf. John 8:17-18; 14:16-17, 26; 15:26; 16:7-15; Matthew 3:16-17)     

  · Being the unique Son entails that Christ’s relationship with God must be understood within its historical and cultural context.

    Jesus as God’s Son must be taken in light of its immediate Jewish context and the Jewish understanding of father-son relationships.  This boils down to three main points:     

    1. Obedience - The son was expected to be totally obedient to the father in all matters. (Cf. Proverbs 4:1-4)  In identifying Himself as God’s Son, Jesus indicated that He was obliged to be in perfect obedience to the divine will.

     

    2. Learning - A son was expected to learn the father’s trade, his skills, and his experience.  Jesus is therefore saying that He has taken up God’s work, learning what He knows directly from God. (Cf. John 5:19-20)

     

    3. Agency - Finally, a son was expected to act as the father’s agent when called upon, and would be considered the father’s legal authority in such situations.  Jesus is therefore asserting that He was appointed to be God’s direct agent. (Cf. Mark 12:6-7; John 5:43, 12:44-45)     

    The preceding lines of evidence compel us to come to the very conclusion that historic Christianity has come to. Namely, that the historical Jesus, being the Christ of biblical faith, was God’s very own Son in a unique sense.  Such uniqueness continues to separate him from the rest of humanity.     

    Those who choose to believe otherwise do not do so because of the biblical evidence. It is due rather to their philosophical or religious presuppositions that will not allow for Christ’s uniqueness, since this serves to elevate Jesus above all other religious figures.     

    Yet this fact will always remain. Seeing that the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea will forever remain empty, Jesus Christ will have no superior or equal among men, since he alone is the Risen Lord of Glory. The rest are but mortal men who have left their tombs occupied till this very day.     

    Seeing that Christ alone was able to rise from the dead, never to die again, he alone has proven his claim of being God’s only beloved and eternal Son:     

    “Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, ‘We have seen the Lord!’ But he said to them, ‘Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it.’ A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, ‘Peace be with you! Then he said to Thomas, ‘Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.’ Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’ Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.’ Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” John 20:24-31 NIV                         

    “...and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.” Romans 1:4 NKJV     

    AMEN     

    [1]   It should be noted that all italicized words appear in Greek cases in the originals.  We are unable to provide the Greek characters due to the fact that we do not have the technological capabilities to do so.     

     [2] Islam is guilty of upholding this unbiblical view, believing that Christians teach that God begot Christ in a physical manner, having a consort (wife) to match:   

    “They say: ‘God hath begotten a son.’  Glory be to Him.  Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything readers worship to him.”  S. 2:116 Ali                   

    “Wonderful originator of the heavens and the earth; How can He have a son when He has no consort?  He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things.”  S. 6:101   

    Muslim translator A. Yusuf Ali notes:   

    It is a derogation from the glory of God - in fact is blasphemy - to say that God begets sons, like a man or an animal.  The Christian doctrine is here emphatically repudiated.  If words have any meaning, it would mean an attribution to God of a material nature, and of the lower animal functions of sex.  In a spiritual sense we all are children of God.  And all Creation celebrates His glory. (Ali, Holy Quran: Translation and Commentary, p. 49, f. 119)                   

    Begetting a son is a physical act depending on the needs of men’s animal nature.  God Most High is independent of all needs, and is derogatory to Him to attribute such an act to Him.  It is merely a relic of pagan and anthropomorphic materialist superstitions.  (Ibid., p. 774, f. 2487)     

    This understanding of Jesus’ sonship is also held by the noted Muslim apologist, Ahmad Deedat:     

    “He [God] does not beget because begetting is an animal act.  It belongs to the lower animal act of sex.  We do not attribute such an act to God.” (Anis Shorrosh, Islam Revealed, p. 254)

    [3] In John’s Gospel, Christ declares:

    “You have heard Me say to you, ’I am going away and coming back to you.’  If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said. ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.”  John 14:28 NKJV     

    The Greek term for greater is meizon and often refers to one who is greater in quantity, not necessarily in quality.  (Cf. John 14:12; Matthew 11:11) Thus the Father was greater in rank, not in nature or essence.     

    In fact, had it been the Lord’s intention to show a qualitative superiority, he could have used the term kreiton, which often (but not always) indicates one who is superior in nature.  This is the way the Greek is used to distinguish Christ from angels in Hebrews 1:4:     

    “having become so much better than the angels as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.” NKJV     

    Christ is “better” than the angels due to his superior essence, namely that Jesus is God Incarnate.  Christ is also greater in rank. That this is the obvious meaning of the term can be readily and easily seen from looking at the entire context of Hebrews 1. The author of Hebrews presents Christ as Yahweh God, the Creator and Sustainer of the universe (vv. 2-3, 8-12).  Yet at the same time, Hebrews indicates that Christ, “was made a little lower than angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.” (Cf. Hebrews 2:9) This obviously refers to Christ’ sojourn on earth where he existed in the form of a slave, making himself nothing. (Cf. Philippians 2:5-8)   

    This is precisely the meaning of the Johannine passage. Christ being equal with God and superior to angels, was positionally lower than both while living on earth in the form of a slave.     

    Thus, to use John 14:28 as an argument against the Deity of Christ is untenable both contextually and linguistically.  The verse is referring to Christ’s position as the Father’s servant while on earth, not to his inherent and abiding nature, which is eternal and perfect Deity. (Cf. John 1:1; Colossians 2:9)



     

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Squidwort
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« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2008, 11:23:49 AM »

off-topic to, pero i just want to share my thoughts. pls dont be offended by the satire, and some stuff i bring out in the open.

i'm not really into citing bible verses. it's like arguing which product is better, and you're using the promotional brochure of the product you're defending, as your premise. we should take note that all the writers of the bibles (that we know of) are big fans of christ, and i think quoting them compromises the neutrality of our opinion regarding this. of course, it's only natural to be biased and be overly defensive when the topic on the table is your belief. so, bash me if you will.

we can all pick key verses from the bible, but it will still get us nowhere. the fact remains that if you really want to find the truth, you have to do so yourself. you can't really rely on the words of other people if you have no actual idea of what it really is. it's like picking which color you like when you're blind.

as far as i know, (based not only in the bible, but in history).

christ was a product of zionist sentiments, yes the jewish diaspora made the super-nationalistic jews weave together their own buddha-like divinity to christ. of course, making him bigger than life. mohammed mimicked what the jews did, and more successfully used it to accomplish his political agenda.

then, christ was crafted into a religious figurehead by octavian's roman empire, he became a high political entity that grants unquestioned political authority to the clergy. he became the mascot for a religion that espouses violence against "infidels" during the dark ages, and eventually he became a source of moral education after the renaissance.

so, looking back at it, endlessly arguing christ's divinity is an utterly pointless one, unless you wanted to be what christ himself, described as a pharisee. y'know, the pompous, feeling-so-righteous pharisees, who are arguing endlessly which books of the torahs are right, correcting everyone who they think are wrong, when in fact, their lives are one tangled mess of contradictions to their preachings.

but personally, christ's teachings are what matters most. i don't think one should scrutinize and master every single detail about the bible and its intricacies... well, unless you want to wield the bible as a tool to terrorize the gullible, inflicting them guilt, embarrassment and confusion, to control, manipulate and brainwash them for fun and profit. well, memorizing key verses like a magic incantation would really work for you. after all, they are holy words with supreme power from up above. the only way you can effectively argue against them requires to also painstakingly look up a counter-verse from the bible, since logic and reason does not work. that's what folk-christian people usually do. i tried doing that for a time, it sounds fun, and i managed to frustrate a few hardcore bible geniuses with my selected list of self-contradicting verses in the bible.

but in the end, the winning argument always goes like, god gave adam and eve a brain, not a bible.

~

pero personally speaking, christ is a close companion through tough times. god is more divine, and somehow, it makes feel one too distant to him when one is burdened by guilt and sin. y'know naman sa old testament, how vengeful god can be. the promise of redemption is not so easily attained.

well, for me, christ is the bridge to god. of course, god has a soft spot for christ, since he's the son (oh-kay, there goes my argument. yes, i think i believe christ is the son of god. and in a way, a part of god too). so, whenever we sin and our hearts calls for repentance to christ, christ intercedes to god for us. why? well, because christ is part human, so i think he may share a certain kinship to us, and well, ask for special favors from god, to forgive us and shower us with a simple blessing, like finding a hundred peso bill on the side walk... (okay bad example, but you get the idea). i dont know.

i think we can be familiar with christ. i mean, since he already sacrificed it all, and forgave us after all that whip-lashing, crown-of-thorns, and crucifixion, it doesn't hurt to scream out your frustrations to him every once in a while. y'know, it isnt that hard to try to open up a life in which you walked with him, and well, live your life to the fullest knowing he's got your back.

hehehe. now i'm being evangelistic. pero whatever works.
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Gcorneja
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« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2008, 06:03:20 PM »



Jesus was and has always been God. He is the Father and the Father is Jesus. He took a human form and gained some human qualities: he grew tired and he died - for our sins - but he rose again on the third day. It was part of the plan. God can do anything as he pleases.

I think it will help to cite some verses smile

John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

John 10:30
"I and the Father are one."

John 10:33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

John 14:9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Philippians 2:5-11
 5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
 6Who, being in very nature God,
      did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
 7but made himself nothing,
      taking the very nature of a servant,
      being made in human likeness.
 8And being found in appearance as a man,
      he humbled himself
      and became obedient to death—
         even death on a cross!
 9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
      and gave him the name that is above every name,
 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
      in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
      to the glory of God the Father.
[/quote]


nong, ria pa gali o. Before the John 10:30, kindly read John 10:27-29 kay the father kag c jesus one sa pngangalaga sa mga tupa/alagad kag indi bilang Dios.  sa tagalog translaion, Ako at ang Ama ay nagkakaisa.  innocent
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